AMVs versus vids (Can o' worms? Check! Can opener? Check! Let's rock and roll!)

[starlady]

So I gave were_duck a list of AMV recs for the Vid Party she and damned_colonial are organizing at WisCon (I'm so excited, seriously). And as part of that I watched a lot of AMVs in a very short time span, which I haven't done in forever, and which caused me to say this in reply to lian's post on original versus fan works. And then both of them asked me, more or less, for my thoughts on AMVs versus vids.

Here's were_duck 's question:

I'm getting the sense from the few amvs that I've seen that there are significant differences between vids and amvs, but I don't really have the language to express what that is other than just saying that they come from different subcultures/traditions. Care to share your thoughts on the subject?

So let me repost my reply:

Hmm. Well, I can say a few things, certainly. I guess the first thing is that AMVs have come a long way from their VCR to VHS origins in the late 80s/early 90s, as I imagine vids have (when did vidding become a thing? same time? earlier? later?); the VHS AMVs that were made with access to professional-grade equipment still stand up, but they fit on the low end of the...hmm...technicality spectrum now.

The thing I notice over and over again is that AMVs abhor lipflap. Seriously, if there's one thing that'll get you flamed as an utter noob in AMV circles it's lipflap. Conversely, lip syncing done well is a real ideal of the genre. Whereas, in most vids I've seen the attitude seems to be that lipflap happens and you've just got to deal with it.

The other thing I notice is that, particularly in the last three-four years, AMVs have become feats of video editing and digital clip creation achievement. That one I linked above, "The Running Man", epitomizes this trend--there isn't a single frame of that video that hasn't been digitally retouched in some way, and a good chunk of it is original animation (actually, remind me to dig up the link to this one Death Note AMV I saw last year that has even more original animation). So the end result is this amalgamation of transformed and original content in a transformative practice that ends up somewhere in between the two, in terms of impact, I think. Whereas most vids I've seen are almost wholly using transformed content, and in terms of aim they are usually engaging directly with the source fandom, whether as critique or meta discussion or story-telling. The AMVs that are most popular these days, by contrast, tend to be multi-anime, and tend to have sheer spectacle as their purpose. Even when an AMV uses a single anime and an obviously relevant song (I'm thinking of this Soul Eater AMV here), it tends not to tell a story so much as harp on a trope. Actually, if you take a look at the 2010 Viewers' Choice Awards on animemusicvideos.org, you can see this made clear in the categories: Storytelling and No Effects get their own particular categories because they're the exception, not the rule.

A lot of this is just, I think, fairly deterministic in that it can be chalked up to the nature of the footage that vidders have available to them, respectively. I don't really think it's possible to make a multi-TV fandom dance vid, for example, but damn straight you can make some awesome multi-anime dance AMVs.

Apparently Francesca Coppa wrote an article about AMVs versus vids at one point, but I haven't read it, or so lian says here.

You'll note that my reply doesn't actually say much about the nature of vids, because I am still very much a noob when it comes to vids. I have probably seen two dozen total in my lifetime (sad, I know!)--whereas I personally have made 15 AMVs, and have inchoate plans for a lot more (and I should note, I am very much an old school AMV person, one who thinks primarily in terms of single-anime AMVs and has neither the plans nor the desire to become one of the technical wizards). So what do you think of my thoughts, vidders? Am I terribly wrong and just don't know it? And if I am, then where?   

ETA: Thanks to wistfuljane, have two hilarious posts by thefourthvine addressing this question from a vidder's perspective: Anime Vids for Media Fans, and The AMV Feedback Project: Reaching New Heights of Obsession!.

I should probably actually write up a bit of description for each of those recs I posted, shouldn't I? *sigh* 

ETA 2: Here are my AMV recs, with explanations!

ETA 3: One final related post!

Comments

[inkstone]

Omigosh, speaking of old school VHS AMVs, do you remember the I Must Increase My Bust AMV? I think I still have that somewhere on VHS!

But yes, I agree. Most vids I've watched are some sort of engagement with the source material. Most AMVs I've seen rely more on visual spectacle. Like I Claymore vid I embedded a few days ago... it's telling the internal arc of the series protagonist but its strength is visual in nature -- the way the cuts are synced with the music.

(Hahaha, look at me talking like I know anything about vids other than "Yay, I watched this and it was cool!")

[wistfuljane]

I don't know if you read them, but thefourthvine wrote a couple of posts on AMVs that sort of delved into the style of AMVs and such from a perspective of a media fan: Anime Vids for Media Fans, The AMV Feedback Project: Reaching New Heights of Obsession! and anime tag.

*checks the rest of your links*

[starlady]

Oo, no, wasn't aware. Thanks much!

[starlady]

*reads* LOL forever! so true!

And, yeah, it still weirds me out so bad to see vids, in which people's mouths move, not in time with the music.

[starlady]

Hmm, I think I saw that once, maybe, but I never owned a copy.

And, yes. It just seems to me that the ethos is very, very different.

:-) That's where I'm at with vids too.

[inkstone]

Ha, at least you've made some!

[inkstone]

And, yeah, it still weirds me out so bad to see vids, in which people's mouths move, not in time with the music.

YES.

[pseudo_tsuga]

Came here from my network; thanks for the links! AMVs is how I first encountered fan-made videos so it's still my primary visual language for fandom. It gets really annoying when you see fanvidders dismissing it as shallow and unskilled, though.

[were_duck]

This is a great post full of crunchy, helpful things! I just got home and am in the process of DLing all of your recs and watching them, and your comments are really helping me get a handle on amvs in a way I never really have before. I think it's because I have tried to watch them the way I would watch a (western media fandom) vid, narratively and in conversation with the source canon, instead of as a visual spectacle as you say. Anyhow! I am tracking this post, and I'm really glad you're hosting this conversation.

I think there are lots of multi-TV dance vids depending on what you mean by 'dance vid'? I mean, we've got dozens on our vid party playlist earmarked for the 'dance party' portion of the night. One example that might fit what you're thinking of is Charmax's Boogie Wonderland, another is jescaflowne's Can Delight.

I haven't seen any Coppa articles about amvs vs. vids, and I think if I'm reading lian's comment right, she's suggesting that a Coppa article she read about how vids specifically make an argument wasn't generalized (or generalizable) to amvs (or all vids, for that matter).

Which, I don't think Coppa would mean to suggest that all remixes must make an argument of some kind in order to be somehow legitimate. But lian has a point there, basically, that vidding history like the work Coppa does is not really descriptive of the formation of amv culture. I don't necessarily think it has to be, either, and I think Coppa is generally good at mentioning that she's looking at a specific subculture and she's tracing the history and some of the techniques and language of that particular community. I think amvs have their own, equally awesome subculture, history, technique, and visual language, as you describe above. It deserves its own Geneology of AMVs, you know?

As you and I are experiencing right now, having a grasp of 'how to watch an amv' does not necessarily easily translate to 'how to watch a vid', and vice versa. I think that recognizing their roots in different traditions is good, and I think basically what we want here is some academic/historical work on amvs (which I'm sure exists, I just don't know where). Which is to say, "yes, but..." is a great impulse! We want cross-pollination! I am merrily slugging through amv.org downloading all of your recs so I can learn something of the awesomeness of amvs right now.

And as for being a vid noob, well, I'm an amv noob! We can have fun together learning about each others' fannish passions, and I'm looking forward to having some of these new-to-me vids in our show.

[lian]

just jumping in here quickly (am on my late late way to wooork!) to say that yeah, Coppa never wrote anything about AMV vs. vids, but about Women, Star Trek, and the early development of fannish vidding, which makes a pretty focused (maybe too focused) argument about vids, I think, and to second were_duck's comment -- surely there is some academic treatment of AMVs somewhere (and if yes, I'm sure you're the person to ask? :D), but what I'd really love to see would be a contrastive discussion of AMVs vs. vids. <3

[littlebutfierce]

And, yeah, it still weirds me out so bad to see vids, in which people's mouths move, not in time with the music.

Meeeeee too. AUGH HATE IT.

Here via were_duck; I will be looking at your recommended list of AMVs!

I watch (v. few) AMVs & almost no other kinds of vids, but your point about spectacle vs. storytelling makes sense to me.

(Though I tend not to like multi-anime AMVs unless I've seen all/most of them: I am one of those rare-ish people that doesn't enjoy fan product unless I've seen/read the source.)

[starlady]

This post has my recs with explanations.

I never used to watch AMVs or vids, or read fic, in fandoms I didn't know. Then I decided that I was missing out on too much fun. But definitely I think a few of my recs can be appreciated without having seen the source anime, since they transcend their sources so utterly.

[starlady]

I wrote out my recs with text.

I'll have to check out those dance vids you mention; I wonder if we're using the same words to describe different things, like thefourthvine talks about. *g*

Anyway, more as I think about it.

[starlady]

See, I deliberately tried not to be too contrastive here, since what I know about vids would fit in a thimble and then I'd just have people saying "You're wrong!" and rightly so. But maybe I went too far the other way?

I know of no academic discussion of AMVs, but this might be a question for the AMRL. Off to write an email, then.

[were_duck]

I saw your written out recs, and am grateful you took the time! Thank you.

I think you're right, we're probably using the same words in different ways. I'll admit, if you come up with a definition of what a 'dance vid' is/means in your parlance, we can probably come to an understanding! Mine is pretty much "vid set to a song that you can dance to, possibly with images of people dancing or otherwise doing visually interesting things", and I am not a vid expert--actual live action fandom vidders might have more specific or different ideas about what constitutes a 'dance vid'.

[starlady]

...Is the intention with a dance vid that people actually dance?

[littlebutfierce]

Thank you, I'll have a look!

I know lots of people in fandom have gotten into other fandoms by reading fic or watching vids that they don't know anything about, but I dunno, I like going into things knowing about them, heh. I will appreciate a pretty vid from an unfamiliar source if I end up seeing one for some reason, but it's never (yet?) made me want to go look at the source.

[aethel]

nifty post! I was especially intrigued by the lip synching remarks, because I've only seen one vid ever that did that: Every Penguin Dance Now, by Mister Anderson. And from what you described, it was probably made in the AMV tradition?

[wistfuljane]

Having read your initial comment and the comments here about AMVs vs. vids, I'm reminded of this vidshow playlist called Live-Action / Anime vidpairs by par_avion that paired a (Western media) live-action vid and an AMV set to the same song. It's an interesting comparative look at the two mediums.

Along that line, it might be interesting to look at the rest of the anime vidshow playlists shown at vividcon since the con's mostly geared toward (Western) media fandom in term of audience and scope?

- VVC: The Anime Vidshow (Disaster) by flummery
- Vividcon 2005 Anime Vidshow - playlist, decisions and reactions by absolutedestiny
- Anime: A Pre-digital History (and Vividcon 2005 Anime Panel Post-mortem) by absolutedestiny

(Side-note: absolutedestiny is a well-known AMV vidder who has crossed the divide to (media fandom) vidding, I think.)

I think you should link to this post to vidding! The readers there should have more links and thoughts on AMVs vs. vids!

Last link: The Fastest Ever Guide to Songvid Watching by cupidsbow! There's a section that talks about the main two styles of (media fandom) vids, narrative and impressionistic, with examples. But if compared to AMVs, I think it would be wholly different.

[damned_colonial]

So I have a working definition that I use when categorising my vids (why yes, I have a huge pile of vids on my hard drive, ask me about it sometime). To me, in live action media fandom, a dance vid is a vid which is:

a) made from sources which show people dancing (eg. musicals)
b) the overall vid has a sort of choreographed look, as if it were all one seamless musical number

were_duck already mentioned a couple, but I would add:

Puttin' On The Ritz by killa and tzikeh (mostly classic musicals).

Starlight by Buffyann (um, hard to explain the source movie genre, but there are several movies here that are about people working to become dancers, get into dance school, win dance competitions, etc.)

When I was looking for links to the above, I also found Dance with me by chasarumba, which uses ballroom dance movies.

There's also a sort of secondary definition of dance vids (IMHO) which is more like what you see at Club Vivid. Club Vivid is a vid show that happens at Vividcon each year, where people make vids to danceable music, and they run the show as a dance party (i.e. people aren't sitting in chairs, they're up and dancing). There are no rules other than that it needs to be danceable music, but the aesthetic there tends towards shiny and, um, shallow I guess? Like, I mean that you don't have to watch carefully for themes and narrative. They often have striking visuals and lots of motion.

[damned_colonial]

Wrt lipflapping, in live media vids it's called "talky-face" and is generally frowned on, but hard to avoid.

Here's one of mine with very little talky-face, by live action fanvid standards. I think part of the problem is that the people filming the show/movie/whatever tend to point the camera at whoever's talking, and also that fanvidding also often tries to convey emotion, and that often happens when people's faces are moving.

Also, wrt making lips move to the music... in my experience, you can't really do that with live human beings, because we can tell that they're not saying the same words. The motions of a human face when speaking are much more subtle than those of an animated face. I say "in my experience" because I once made this vid with muppets and found it pretty easy to get them to lip sync because, let's face it, when muppets speak their mouths just open and shut... there's no complex lip or tongue movement going on. Lots of people commenting on that muppet vid are amazed at how well the muppets appear to be singing along to the music, because it's really very rare and difficult in live action fandom. (FWIW, the muppets are *really* singing "sailing for adventure on the deep blue sea", but in the vid they are singing "frigging in the rigging 'cause there's fuck all else to do.")

I was talking to lim a while ago and she said that she made "My brilliant idea" (download here) in part as a protest against the "talkyface bad!" meme... she wanted to make a vid with heaps of talkyface in it, but that worked anyway. I think she did a good job of it.

[starlady]

"Hold me now" and the Kaleido Star AMVs on my recs list got me into those shows, which is the exception rather than the rule for me, too.

[starlady]

I have seen your MTI vid, and I totally sat there for the first part thinking, "Wow, really good lipsync!" And then it got off a bit in the second half, and my inner AMV fan went :-( But it was a great vid, regardless.

Also, wrt making lips move to the music... in my experience, you can't really do that with live human beings, because we can tell that they're not saying the same words.

Yes, totally. Whereas with anime, due to low budgets particularly in older shows, the only thing moving in a frame will be a character's mouth, and maybe their eyes. So lip sync (or at least just cutting the lip flap) becomes technically much more feasible. (Though it still takes skill and practice to do well. If there is lip sync in my AMVs it is completely serendipitous, because in the past I haven't been arsed to try.) Also in anime, maybe, emotionality is not quite so strongly linked with characters talking, but I wouldn't want to take that too far.

[starlady]

There are no rules other than that it needs to be danceable music, but the aesthetic there tends towards shiny and, um, shallow I guess? Like, I mean that you don't have to watch carefully for themes and narrative. They often have striking visuals and lots of motion.

That sounds a lot more like what a dance AMV is--both the Kaleido Star AMVs on my recs list fit the bill, actually, because they are about choreographing bodies in motion to a dance track, and use lots of digital effects to do it (though that particular anime brought the sparkles in the source footage). I know there are dance parties at Otakon, but I don't think they use AMVs, just dance music.

And, see, there aren't enough dance anime, I'd say, to make AMVs about--"Hold me now" is set to a magical ballerina anime, and it's honestly the only anime having to do with dance that I can think of.

[starlady]

Lip flap and lip sync are the first and last things I notice when I watch AMVs and live action vids, just because the "lipflap bad!" ideology is so strong among AMV audiences (because, like I said to damned_colonial below, it's usually pretty easy to at least cut lip flap in anime sources, even if one chooses not to lip sync, that not doing it is generally seen to be a sign that one put in minimal effort).

Haven't seen that vid, but it definitely sounds AMV-esque.