Re: The Hugo Awards and trademarks

[starlady]

Many other people have said things I agree with, especially fairestcat, about the bullshit from the WSFS about how AO3 contributors shouldn't refer to ourselves as winners of a tiny fraction of a Hugo Award. The short answer is they're wrong, we are, and we already got our fangirl cooties all over their serious phallic rocket. And they can't change that AO3 did win and we are here; their own fucking members, many of whom are AO3 contributors themselves, voted us the award. Die mad, assholes.

But. I do want to specifically say that the WSFS claims about their trademarks and about U.S. trademark laws are a steaming pile of horseshit. Trademarks are specifically different from copyright and the standards for their use and violation (or "dilution," depending on the case) are in many cases much more stringent. I am not a lawyer, and even I know this. There's a post made on AO3 by a dude who is apparently a trademark lawyer which attempts to obfuscate the specific argument about dilution of trademarks that the WSFS is trying to make, and it's a bunch of unrelated examples that don't apply to this situation. (I also strongly question his professional judgment in making that post; it seems unwise, and he's also specifically not counsel for the WSFS so can't actually comment on specifics.) Furthermore, a trademark cannot be used to compel protected speech (i.e. jokes on Twitter). This is another piece of WSFS' history of overreaching on trademarks, but here's the thing: we don't have to be cowed just because of random dudes making long, serious-seeming posts, even if they have a JD. If there's one thing the OTW and the AO3 have stood for and proved over the past decade and change, it's that we can do things for ourselves. And we can do some pretty amazing things!

I'm not even getting into the fact that as far as I can tell the WSFS has registered its precious trademarks only in the U.S. and the EU (which undoubtedly has different standards for trademarks that I don't know, and I'd bet a good chunk of change the WSFS has no idea about either). Despite the fact that they're allegedly so concerned about these trademarks' dilution, they haven't even registered them in the country hosting the next Worldcon, and they've apparently let them expire in Canada. They're also not registered in Australia, which has hosted Worldcon four times already, the most recent in 2010.

All of which is to say that their claims about this whole kerfuffle being about trademarks are obviously bullshit--Kevin didn't even start mentioning trademarks until the comments on the AO3 news post--but also that merchandise, whether it be pins, T-shirts, badge ribbons, or whatever, using the phrase(s) "Hugo Award(s)" is totally legal in most of the world. Including New Zealand. And that even though they're trying to gatekeep us out of their precious science fiction, we're already inside the gates. And this too shall pass. And in the meantime, we are still all winners of a tiny fraction of a Hugo Award, because we built the AO3 ourselves, whether as volunteers or creators. Here's to us. We're pretty damn awesome.

Comments

[sovay]

the bullshit from the WSFS about how AO3 contributors shouldn't refer to ourselves as winners of a tiny fraction of a Hugo Award.

I have been under a rock for several weeks (and also, I suspect, in different internet spaces) and had not seen the bullshit. Thanks for the précis. Also, seriously.

[starlady]

It's so bad. And the WSFS and File 770 people have been absolute assholes from start to finish--and not just assholes, but stupid assholes. They generally don't seem to understand the points that I and other people have made, or they're just incapable of even imagining that we might know trademark law just as well or better than they do. (Which, for the record, we totally do.)

I said this on Twitter but the other thing about it is that they don't even have their own gd Twitter account to try to bully us from, they sent the OTW a statement to post on the AO3 news page and they made posts on AO3 and they made LJ posts. Other people's websites! Our websites! LJ, still! That is where they are making their nasty stupid comments. It's like arguing with the spirit of 2002, if the spirit of 2002 was a fucking numpty.

[sovay]

And the WSFS and File 770 people have been absolute assholes from start to finish--and not just assholes, but stupid assholes.

I've just seen the summary at synecdochic's. I am not even a particularly fannish writer (do not vid or draw, write about one piece of fic a year, started a full decade after my pro career was established; I host it all on AO3, of course, but it's not my sandbox) and I don't understand what anyone at the WSFS is thinking, except things that I do not consider valid reasons for bad behavior. It's like watching someone set fire to their own feet.

they sent the OTW a statement to post on the AO3 news page

Well, that's stunningly passive-aggressive!

It's like arguing with the spirit of 2002, if the spirit of 2002 was a fucking numpty.

I have started referring to it as a dumpster snowball: it's not quite enough of a crisis for a dumpster fire, but is is garbage and it just keeps going.

[lizbee]

Truthfully, following this whole thing, I've gone from, "Well, obviously creating and selling merch is a bit of a dick move and should be shut down" to "I should definitely create some designs and borrow a badge machine." Maybe I'll earn enough to buy a bottle of Australian sparkling wine, speaking of trademarks which are actually enforced in this country.

(Champagne, if you were wondering. A friend of mine used to be the assistant to the lawyer in charge of defending that one.)

[starlady]

Seriously though, I and many other people would buy those badges in a heartbeat because they have been such dicks about it from the very beginning. I too was like "enh I think these alleged pins are mostly harmless but I don't contest their right to enforce people not doing it" but now my mood is "fuck them all!!!"

And really, I stand by my original suspicion that the pins and the trademarks and the jokes were an ex post facto excuse and their real motivation is that they don't like that we won and don't want us to feel like we belong. Too late! Die mad, SMOFs!

ETA: And yes, we too can only make sparkling wine in this country…because the European Union's origination labeling standards exist and because the champagne makers have filed for their trademarks here. Oh well, California sparkling wine is pretty tasty.

[qem_chibati]

It’s probably worth pointing out, but even Kevin admitted (after a week of wankiing) that he wasn’t speaking officially in the comments on the news post. So the actual official position is as far as I can tell only about the pins, With a bunch of wanky people using this as an opportunity to speak out and officially.

(Specifically, he seems slightly better about differences in vision, and was asked to leave his official role and is only doing the camera in the next business meeting.)

For New Zealand crowd that’s running world con this year, have basically only said a comment on the matter as far as I can tell have only officially said “welcome, please don’t do merchandise”.

So it’s not everyone in the WSFS, but a bunch of wankers who found one legit issue to try and bulldoze their not legit issues through.

[starlady]

Lol, except the trademarks aren't registered in New Zealand, so Hugo Award merchandise is totally legal there. Hell, I could make buttons saying "WSFS SUCKS" and they would be legal. Under U.S. law they would possibly be legal even with the trademarks having been registered, but that's another kettle of fish and I have no idea about NZ trademark law.

It's nice to hear that the WSFS apparently has some people who realize how badly they've mishandled this, but at this point I have to admit I don't really care. I've been part of organizations and I've kept my damn mouth shut as an individual when I've wanted to say things going beyond the organization's official position, because that's the breaks of having a role in organizations like this. These so-called SMOFs are a bunch of assholes stuck in 1982, and to the extent that there are people in the organization who don't agree with that, it's too bad for them that their colleagues have made them look like jerks and they couldn't bestir themselves to make the wankers disavow themselves speaking officially until nearly a week later. There's a lot of goodwill that's been burned through by this whole debacle, and I say this as someone who has been a Worldcon supporting member and attendee since 2009. At this point I'm going to see my AO3 Hugo in DC, and then I'm done.

Finally, reading the original news post doesn't give the strong impression that the alleged pins are the actual meat of their concern because it's so vague. And as I and many other people have said, if these alleged pins were the actual real concern, sending the OTW a passive aggressive note to post on AO3 is a very suspicious way to go about serving C&D letters. I'm sure the pins make a convenient fig leaf, to the extent that they exist, but it's impossible to avoid the conclusion that the real concern is all of us claiming the place in science fiction that we demonstrably already have. Too bad for them that they have no mechanism to revoke the Hugo Award which the WSFS membership (including me!) voted us.

[qem_chibati]

Mmm, just I feel like turning it into all of a WSFS are like that, discounts all of the Media Fandom and more who have been part of the WSFS all along. (Like 1974, Star Trek was accused of ruining the dignity of the Hugo's for basically the same bullshit as this.)

As you said, you were a member, you voted, and it's bullshit that people like JJ are trying to say that you don't count - and JJ is a known wanker who is wrong on many topics.

If you look at the naysayers now, they're mostly the same naysayers that were bitching in April - they got overridden by Dublin Convention and I think New Zealand convention is a bit what about this current brougha.

(the problem is there's a seperate incorporation and society for each worldcon, and they don't appear to have a PR department, so they don't have a way to control individual members - be it say yourself, or JJ, seperate website for each world con. )


I'm still very lol, at the obvious bitterness Kevin has when he admitted he was told that "our visions diverge" and isn't really in charge of shit anymore.


Anyways, I agree with the assessment that it's legal to make those things. I also agree with the assessment that it's less than nice.

I wish that they have a PR department so that they could have put thought into asking nicely what they wanted, instead, we have a whole bunch of communication screw ups and have burnt a lot of good will.

But instead I think we have a deliberate disorganisation/decentralisation to avoid putting power in the wrong peoples hands, and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and now a bunch of assholes get to talk loudly.


... I just feel like it's giving the assholes too much credit to assume that the whole org feels the same way they do. They don't - more than a third of the audience (not 10%) stood up when Ao3 won.

And while it doesn't say good things that WSFS can't get the assholes to shut up, I don't think that the assholes should get to win like that.

(I say as I still wibble over the New Zealand membership I was going to buy to attend next year and am now having second thoughts over - was waiting for the paycheck that came in literally the day before the wank started.)

[starlady]

Yeah, the weird bifurcated structure of WSFS/individual Worldcons definitely introduces a whole other layer of playing telephone here. What really gets me is that, like you say, their organizational capacity is so low--they aren't incorporated, and the Marks Protection Committee has been around for decades (??), yet they can't be arsed to file for these precious marks in more than two trademark offices. They don't even have a Twitter or a blog, let alone a communications committee or PR department! And yet they have the unremitting gall to try to act like everything they say is the word of god and we're the ones who are morons. Nope, nope, that is not actually the case. And on top of it, they're waging this pointless battle against their own membership's already made decision! It's boggling.

Having thought about it more, and heard other people, I do think that you and everyone else is right, and pulling away from Worldcon is the wrong choice, particularly since we already have won this argument and have the support of the membership (i.e. us). I do think that I personally am a little less likely to shell out the very large amount of $$$ it takes to get to New Zealand from the States than I might have been otherwise, but I'm definitely going to DC in 2021 because it's comparatively easier for me. If I were an Antipodes or Asian fan I would definitely go to Auckland in 2020.

Kevin is full of shit and I hope that he personally is deeply unhappy right now! And in the future whenever he thinks of this.

[qem_chibati]

Oh don't worry. Kevin's very "Mood: Depressed" about all of this.

There are multiple twitters! Because each con gets it's own. Like they don't do the sharing of resources super well...

I seriously don't even think it's the people in charge overall, I think it's like Kevin and maybe three friends + some randoms that were looking on an excuse to hate on Ao3 yet again, because they already did so. There are some clueless smofs, but most of them seemed confused by what was going on rather than angry @ ao3.


But yeah - we won! We make up a significant part of the audience, and while it makes the people who don't like our style of fandom angry - they can die mad for all I care. They're the dying minority.